User talk:72.179.34.243

== n"There's no need to clog up the COSC Wiki page with messy formatting and calculations. Just keep the information to the point and under the right subcategory (i.e. not above the "Overview"). Several of the points brought up by you have already been mentioned in the wiki and there is no need to make things personal. This is a wiki page created by people who have attended COSC, and as such it reflects the opinions of those who went there, not those who went to a different school. If you want to post advantages of TESC, it should be posted on the TESC degree pages and explain that rationale there as there are already dozens of degree programs and ideas posted there by you.  ==

I've updated the page to reflect that going through TESC's enrolled options plan can be between roughly $700 - $1000. The calculations on cost were what it personally cost me and I explicitly state that as such comparing taking the same coursework between both colleges. Nothing misleading or inaccurate about that - there is no need to argue over technicialities which is why modifiers like ~ or "about" reflect an estimate not a literally exact figure.

'''For your perusal, at the bottom of this post, I show an apples to apples comparison for a complete COSC degree  compared to  using TESC's enrolled options using overlapping courses you used for TESC's: tl;dr - COSC's would be about $750 cheaper. Also, your degree plan is $6,208 not $6,083.'''  It's not around $580 because I used PF for the Finance requirement which is $137 more expensive, but at the bottom of this comment, I use DSST Principles of Finance for calculation purposes. My main assertion is that between comparing TESC's enrolled option and Charter Oak's BS in BA program, Charter Oak can be more straightforward (need 15 credits less), has less restrictive requirements, and even cheaper. It requires less business credits, uses UExcel exams (with established >90% pass rates), and is about $800 cheaper - that's a fact. It includes the use of a cornerstone and capstone, but you're wrong about not being able to do both courses in the same semester you can (not to mention that doing an entire program for 99% of people is not going to be done in 3.5 months, but probably more like 6  months to a year if we're being realistic).

I've already addressed that TECEP's plan is the cheapest by about $2,000 - $3,000 or so. Specifically, my estimate show it's about $2,588. I'll update it to state $2,600 for your liking. I simply state the facts and concede the fact that it is the cheapest and I consider options on when that may be feasible. It has already been addressed that with COSC you have to take two required courses which is already mentioned in the overview and how TESC doesn't.

Though there are some TECEP exams that can be straightforward, there are no significant review materials, and at some point, it is likely that some/several TECEP courses will entail use of a textbook. From what I've seen there are about 4 or so TECEP exams that could be straightforward for testtakers. After that, you'd probably need to utilize textbooks for the remaining ones.

It's hard to argue that TECEP exams are that great considering instantcert.com's business model is about studying quickly with only their cards, not to mention abundant posts/clear majority sentiment that they are the hardest exams out there. And as you know, a recent thread complained about TECEP exams being difficultfor the reasons I exactly described indicate that TECEP exams are not straightforward as the alternatives. This is a powerful assertion with hard data. Regardless, it is already mentioned that TECEPs are an option should a student elect to do so in the thread, so there is no need to belabor that point as the program encourages people to pursue TECEPs should it fits their needs.

I will/have correct any changes regarding TESC's UL credits to accurately reflect its condition by stating a minimum of 12 UL credits alone (similar to COSC's) since the total 27 - 33 UL credits are a little dubious/variable. Reasons for taking TESC's per credit plan have already been established in the wiki page. I have already informed you on the forum that TESC's business credits are about 63 credits if we're including business statistics, microeconomics, and macroeconomics which are business credits. If you want to do an apple to apples comparison, then compare its 54 credits to 39 credits from COSC for its business degree since the 48 credits figure comes from including microecon, macroecon, and statistics.

I'd ask to refrain from arguing technicalities and semantics, and on insisting on pushing TESC all the time, which has already been done on the forum & on the TESC wikia pages; so please leave debate on the discussion page before this turns into another flame war. There's no need to micromanage each and everything on the website as there are more than one way to skin a cat so they say. Finally, no one is forcefully insisting on one college or the other. If your goal is get people to pick the best option, from your forum posts, and activity in general, it appears that you do try to push people to do the TECEP program which I looked into. I wanted to do it but I found the lack of TECEP material a major obstacle, and I want others to be clear about  as others have found that to be a problem as well. With the UExcels, I studied for each of them with only a few hours top, and got As and Bs without any background. I am not a excellent test taker either, just average. There's an extremely strong argument to be made that with no background in TECEPs, feeling comfortable is not going to happen as likely and will entail more indepth and laborious review. The absence of test prep materials, and the lack of instantcert data as I've repeatedly stated, shows that as well. Data is an extremely powerful thing in that regard compared to either of our opinions. The crux of the matter is that TECEPs simply lack data overall except a few scarce comments hidden throughout the forum.

I have no hidden agenda in doing so, and it is not my intention to state that I am "right" without at least supporting my opinions with hard facts. Like I've said I would have preferred TESC's TECEP "per credit" plan but it is a fact that being forced to take 8 TECEP exams is a drawback. You can save about $2,600, but that comes at the expense of time and comfort.

Like yourself, I am adding balance and correcting misinformation as well so that people can make good decisions.

Charter Oak Total Costs (includes any approximate test fees for UExcel exams)

Core General Education Requirements

CLEP Analyzing and Interpreting Literature (6 credits) - $100

CLEP Intro to Sociology - $100

DSST Business Ethics & Society - $100 (Upper Level)

CLEP College Comp (6 Credits) - $100

DSST Public Speaking - $100

DSST Civil War - $100 (Upper Level)

Saylor Intro to Western Political Thought - $25

DSST Intro to World Religions - $100

ALEKS Business Statistics - $20

Macroeconomics: CLEP - $100

Microeconomics: CLEP - $100

Saylor Chemistry - $25

Saylor Biology - $25

SUBTOTAL: $995.00 (cheaper than TESC's gen. ed requirements by like $30 or so, so not a big deal)

B.S. in BA Requirements:

Business Law: Saylor Business Law and Ethics - $25

Principles of Finance: DSST - $100

DSST MIS - $100

Intro to Marketing: Saylor - $25

Principles to Financial Accounting: CLEP - $100

Principles of Managerial Accounting: Straighterline Accounting I- $149

Principles of Management – Saylor $25

ALEKS Statistics - $0

UExcel Organization Behavior ($145) - Upper Level

UExcel Labor Relations ($145) - Upper Level

UExcel Human Resource Management ($145) - Upper Level

DSST Money & Banking ($100) - Upper Level (but this is a hard exam, but you listed it in your guide, so I included it in mine as well for comparison purposes).

Subtotal: $1,059.00

Miscellaneous UL Exams

UExcel Abnormal Psychology - $145

UExcel Social Psychology - $145

DSST Substance Abuse - $100

Subtotal: $390.00

2 COSC Courses

$1333 - Strategic Management Capstone (Upper Level)

$1333 - Cornerstone Course

Subtotal: $2,666.00

$75 Application Fee

$20 Aleks fee

$40 ACE Fee

$210 Application fee

Subtotal: $345.00

TOTAL: $5,455.00

Doing the TESC Enrolled Options program as you described would be $6,208.00. So $6,208 - $5,455.00 = $753.00

Page Blanking
Hello, I am going to have to ask you to stop blanking pages. If you think that an article is irrelevant or spam, please add the Delete template typed as. --Percebais (talk) 03:48, April 11, 2015 (UTC)

'''Sanantone: "Your rationale for choosing one over the other still doesn't make sense. You think it's okay to spend almost $3,000 more to avoid TECEPs, but you don't think it's okay to spend several hundred dollars more to avoid the cornerstone and capstone and more difficult tests to meet COSC's additional upper level requirements. If you would have posted accurate information in the first place, then no edition would be needed. I was a COSC student, by the way. Wikis are open by definition. You obviously have not done a good job of reviewing my post history. I don't expect people to review thousands of my posts, but don't make assumptions off of poor sampling. I have recommended COSC many times when I felt it was the best option. So far, the only school you've pushed is COSC based on their business administration program. Not everyone is going to be a business major, and COSC is not the best option for everyone even if they do want to major in business. The same goes for EC and and TESC. Neither I nor others have posted anything on TESC's degree plan page that pushes TESC over the other two schools. We have just posted plans. You are also the only person I've seen with a signature that pushes one school over another. "'''

'''Since you have never been a TESC student, then you should stop editing the TESC page according to your logic. I do not post cost plans on the wiki for a few reasons. If I ever feel like posting a cost plan under my name, then I will do so. Please refrain from posting my plans under my name. Thank you. '''

Kitten: Sure, I won't post plans under your name - though you did post your TESC with costs before the Overview for COSC. I merely put a place for the TESC Enrolled Options estimates you designed in a place that would be easy to retrieve since you were making a comparison between a hypothetical TESC Enrolled Options plan and COSC's typical plan.

Secondly, for a 4 year bachelor's degree, $2,600 difference is not a large amount of money. Not by American standards by any means. Is it worth considering? Yes, absolutely but compared to a $50,000 to $200,000 degree, all 3 schools offers degrees for an incredible steal. It's fine to cut costs as much as possible, but not to dwell on a couple thousand dollar differences imo. It's fine to point them out, but I'd wager a lot of people simply don't care about squeezing every dollar. I do value and appreciate frugality, but often cheapest doesn't always mean "best bang for buck." Don't go for the cheapest, or the most expensive item i.e. somewhere in the middle in terms of "optimizing utility to price ratio."

Sanantone: "You think it's okay to spend almost $3,000 more to avoid TECEPs, but you don't think it's okay to spend several hundred dollars more to avoid the cornerstone and capstone and more difficult tests to meet COSC's additional upper level requirements."

Kitten: A minimum part time job at McDonald's or anywhere can get one that in a short period of time. A $2,600 difference is not a lot of money for getting a college degree. Can saving $2,600 be nice? Of course, and an option people should seriously look into if they're interested in it (I know I was). It's just important to at least ponder and consider the downsides of that (and there's always a downside to every option). On a holistic level, TECEP gets you the cheapest degree, but you're stuck with doing a lot of TECEPs that lack review materials. It's cheap, and may take longer to get through due to combing through textbook, and/or doing Saylor courses. A degree through COSC is more expensive, but it tends to be a bit easier, and fast thanks to several/all exams requiring no textbooks, and can be passed in a few hours as many test-takers including myself have indicated, combined with >90% pass rates with sufficiently large sample sizes.

I make it very clear that the TECEP place is the cheapest, but I mention that it entails the use of TECEP exams which have sufficient concerns and complaints about. Like I've said, I'd wish there were more quick and easy prep materials like flash cards, and practice exams, and test data, then I'll say that this plan is amazing. Maybe that happens someday. But there is a major downside and that' s the use of textbooks. Most people simply dont' want to flip through 500 - 800 page textbooks even if a couple of exams you don't need to do.

It's not just about the money. The TECEP degree for about $800 extra is a nominal issue as far as I'm concerned. COSC has less credits needed to finish the Business Admin degree (about 15 credits), but let's say it's 9 credits so 3 courses/exams because of TEEX, it generally has more lax business elective requirements (for the 12 business credits) in exams that have established >90% pass rates, with flash cards, and solid test feedback that people can pass with a few hours of prep, and doesn't require any advanced coursework in Finance or Accounting – subjects that most students have trouble/tend to avoid. Yes, the cornerstone & capstone courses must be taken and those points are conceded for TESC. It's a nonissue that it may take 3.5 months to do both, or 7 months as far as I'm concerned, it's an issue that you have to take the courses through the college, but at least it ends up being about $800 cheaper which makes it a wash in my book. They're also pretty easy/straightforward courses. Also, the degree plan I've mentioned shows some very easy UL exams that students find straightforward. I've mentioned 18 UL business credits that are easy for students to take, so what remains is 12 UL credits. Those can be satisfied by DSST Civil War, DSST Substance Abuse, UExcel Psychology of Adulthood & Aging, and Social Psychology. No DSST in Money & Banking or DSST in Finance in the degree program. Overall, I think I've addressed each of these points pretty well and given a fair shake to the TESC plans. The program overall is designed for being one that uses exams and coursework with convenience and ease as a priority with money being a secondary factor.

Yes, I've made it clear on multiple occasions that the test out degree options are mainly for a BS in BA degree. I made that distinction in the wiki as the other majors through COSC are not practically possible to completely test out of. Most test-out degrees are in some type of liberal arts or business degree because you can't do one in engineering or hard sciences for certain reasons.

Sanantone: "'Not everyone is going to be a business major, and COSC is not the best option for everyone even if they do want to major in business. The same goes for EC and and TESC. Neither I nor others have posted anything on TESC's degree plan page that pushes TESC over the other two schools. We have just posted plans. You are also the only person I've seen with a signature that pushes one school over another. "'

Kitten: Not everyone is going to be a business major, but it can be argued that most people tend to go for the business major since it's a "one size fits all" kind of degree. I don't specify or tell people to go for this degree. Though I point out where a COSC BS BA could be better for the average student versus TESC's enrolled and "per credit options." If a student has no problems with a cornerstone and capstone course, and doesn't want to do TECEPs based on the criteria I specify, want to have less credits to do, and feel that the list of UEXcel & DSST exams available to them through instantcert will yield a quick/easy pass, then this is for them. That's all, and that's the point I try to make

If we're going to be blunt what I think the comparison ultimately comes down to is TESC's "per credit" plan versus COSC's regular degree and that TESC's "enrolled options" shouldn't really be considered too much unless a student absolutely deplores taking any coursework whatsoever. It's $800 - $1000 more expensive, has you take more courses, and advanced coursework/exams in subjects that aren't so great.

Also, may fo the other options at COSC are simply not fully test-outable. It's not that I push COSC over TESC, it's that people on the forum consistently push the TESC TECEP plan as a one-size fits all plan without looking at possible downsides. I have 3 links in my signature. One is info about the new BS in BA, the 2nd a link to the COSC degree plan, and a 3rd one about my personal beliefs on TECEP exams and facts about them generally lacking in prep materials. I posted that because there is an absence of information about that, and enough people either have or do post about TECEP exams being difficult, or hard to know what to expect including myself that I felt it necessitated mentioning. Nothing wrong with that.

Sanantone: '''I have yet to see the requirements for COSC's BSBA, so I only know the requirements for the General Studies degree with the business concentration. TESC requiring more business credits, if that is even the case, should not be an issue because the business CLEPs/DSSTs are among the easiest exams out there. You don't need to take any Uexcels for TESC's general management degree. The general consensus is that Uexcels are more difficult than CLEP/DSST. So you have to take one advanced test or course in accounting or finance? It's not a big deal. Taking an open book TECEP is less time-consuming than taking the cornerstone and capstone. You could also use a LL Straighterline course that will count as UL at TESC (managerial accounting is transcribed as cost accounting). This course would probably only fulfill COSC's managerial accounting requirement. In other words, an SL course that would fulfill TESC's advanced accounting requirement is equivalent in difficulty to a test or course one would take to fulfill COSC's managerial accounting requirement. Additionally, COSC requires SL Accounting I and II to count for the financial accounting requirement whereas TESC does not. Accounting I is financial and Accounting II is managerial. SL's financial accounting will count as Intermediate Accounting at TESC and meet the advanced accounting requirement even though it's not UL. Again, what is considered an advanced course at TESC would only fulfill COSC's financial accounting requirement. Any of those options are not as bad as having to take significantly more tests that are ACE-evaluated as UL, therefore more difficult, for COSC's degree. '''

'''Other things to note are that the Organizational Behavior, Management Information Systems, and Human Resource DSSTs count as UL at TESC. One would have to take the more difficult Uexcels to get UL credit at COSC. Many of the UL liberal arts exams one would take to meet COSC's UL requirements are among the most difficult exams. I'd rather take TEEX courses for the business electives and the three exams mentioned above for the AOS over most of the UL liberal arts exams. '''

KittenMittens: I will admit that TESC’s benefits are that you can do most/all of it using DSST/CLEPs and also I discovered that TESC doesn’t require you to take a lab credit (COSC does, but it’s easy through SL). The one thing I don’t like looking at your plan here: http://degreeforum.wikia.com/wiki/Sanantone%27s_BSBA_General_Management is the DSST in Money & Banking which has an abysmally low 85% rate (it doesn’t seem much compared to 95% for the ones I’ve recommended, but there’s enough people having trouble with it warranting concern that it can’t be passed in a few hours).

From the list you mentioned, easy options for TESC’s “Enrolled Options” would be 

DSST MIS (management) (3 UL)

DSST Organizational Behavior (management) (3 UL)

DSST Human Resource Management (management) (3UL)

UExcel Labor Relations (management)  (3 UL)

Managerial accounting (accounting)

Financial accounting (accounting)

But still missing a exam in marketing or finance so a PF course could do. Also, I’m not sure if those SL courses in Financial Accounting & Managerial Accounting can also satisfy the intro. accounting SL simultaneously, and if not, that’s an extra 2 courses in Accounting than what most people would want.

The cornerstone course doesn’t entail any significant reading (you can get by without reading the gladwell book), and basically a research paper that’s 5-7 pages and some discussion assignments/peer review. Capstone course is the one for COSC where some textbook is used but imo still better than the uncertainty of 1-8 TECEP exams and reading textbooks for 1-8 or even 4 textbooks if the first 4 are easy ones like someone mentioned on the forum. For the COSC MGT499 Capstone, at least you read the textbook piece by piece, and getting points towards passing the class (with a C) & has been said to be straightforward.

Anyways, I do agree with you that from a pure utility standpoint, that TESC’s “Enrolled Options” plan is superior to COSC’s. However, that would justify an additional $750 - $1,000 if not more if you can’t find a 4th easy UL course. The downsides though are that you’d have to take a second course in math (college algebra on top of business statistics through COSC), as well as an additional 3 business courses (excluding the 6 easy credits from TEEX). The major downside of this “Enrolled Options” is the pressure to complete the program in under a year for fear of being charged again another $3,279 (including tech fees). From a utility/price standpoint, I think the COSC Business Degree is superior since it’s A) about a grand cheaper B) it’s annual fee is about $2,544 cheaper than TESC’s Enrolled Options ($3,279 vs $735 [$245 semester fee * 3]

Also, for graduate programs, the absence of graded coursework is actually a downside. 99% of colleges have graded coursework. UExcels are actually better for that reason because at least it shows As, Bs, or C.s Of course, there’s a risk of getting a C, but the exams I’ve mentioned (UExcel Organizational Behavior, Labor Relations, UExcel Human Resource Management, UExcel Psychology of Adulthood & Aging, and UExcel Social Psychology have ~95% pass rates and most students getting at least Bs. Good enough for getting in master’s programs say an MBA from an AACSB program.). If comparing apples with apples, the absence of a GPA from TESC would look no better than at least a 3.0 higher from COSC.

Big picture: I think COSC offers the best “Bang for Buck.” It uses UExcels but exam difficulty goes in this pattern CLEPs > DSSTs > UExcels > TECEPS (in general). The exams used have ~95% passing rates with favorable feedback overall. You have to take 2 courses which is a downside but still about a grand cheaper than TESC’s “Enrolled Options” and less pressure to graduate in a year. They also accept FEMAs as well for free. TESC’s “Per Credit” program is factually the cheapest, but that requires taking on more uncertainty which is a fact. Most students are not as proficient or aware as you or I, and having to read textbooks will likely deter them. If you can aggregate information/materials that can efficiently get one a B.S. in BA using 8 TECEPs, with sufficient pass rates, and quality review materials, I'd be all for it

When enough data, and quality prep material comes out for the TECEP “Per Credit” program, I’ll definitely say that this is the program to go to. You’ll notice, btw, that I never mention Excelsior because it’s just so much more expensive and price gouges students ($1,050 or something enrollment fee, $490/credit hour, $490 graduation fee, annual $450 fee, can’t test out as easily for a B.S. in B.A.), and tends to have some degree requirements that can't be tested out easily (thus driving the cost up by another few grand quite often).

At the very least, Excelsior should be omitted from most recommendations, & I think the big question students will have to ask is: TESC "Per Credit" program vs COSC Program at least as far as a B.S. in BA goes (which looks better than a BA in  liberal arts degree and tends to be easily testable out of).

Sanantone: You're still talking on my page? The Public Relations: Thought and Practice TECEP counts as marketing, has flashcards, and Bricabrac recently said it was easy. And, on what planet is 85% an abysmal pass rate? Although, which you already know, I don't put any faith into IC pass rates. What are you talking about fourth easy upper level course? You listed more than four: MIS, Organizational Behavior, Human Resources Management, Labor Relations, and SL Managerial Accounting (transcribed as Cost Accounting) were included in your easy list. That is more than enough to meet the upper level requirements. There is no pressure to complete the program in a year. People usually complete most of their tests and courses before enrolling under the Enrolled Options Plan. They also do the same at COSC and Excelsior.

Since you brought up MBA programs from AACSB-accredited business schools, some (if not many) will require college algebra or precalculus.

Sanantone: Major56 who repeatedly makes posts that don't make sense because he's senile? You're friends with Bluebooger who has made racist comments about Africans? You're in good company. You think you're superior to others even though you've also attended schools no one cares about. For your information, I was working the whole time I was in school. I also went to school off and on before finishing my bachelor's, which means that I am not a perpetual student. There is nothing wrong with going for a PhD. Calling me a perpetual student just because I decided to continue on to my PhD is illogical. That means that all people who go for doctoral degrees are perpetual students. I finished my master's in just over a year and will be finishing my PhD in three or four years; that is much faster than average.

KM: Tameishia, you made some major points that I felt compelled to address, so I’ll just post it here.

Lot of people make racist comments about Indians, doesn’t detract from the points they are making when there is truth to some statement. You even tried to cast doubt about my reading ability because I’m from India. Race baiting is just lame, clichéd, and juvenile, so try not to use the minority card against another minority, it won’t win any favors in a logical debate.

Maybe that’s a not so subtle jab at college degrees from India, as is the jab against my ability to speak, however, a degree from Texas State PhD in Criminal Justice or Angelo or whatever is not noteworthy as many have noted, but it’ll get you a job in the government and wherever the bar is set for the lowest common denominator.

I’ve attended University of Delhi which is a prestigious school and in my entire career in data management and analytics, the name has helped me in the tech industry where people of significance and relevance have noted the degree’s worthiness for both my intelligence and work ethic. Maybe in the boondocks it doesn’t matter, but anywhere of relevance and where you can place on a map it does.

In general, one can take out loans after high school to get a degree such as through work study, grants, and loans which you could have used. On the other hand, with my background, there are programs like UC Berkeley’s MBA which specifically note having a degree from India is acceptable, and not TESC for instance. More importantly, I’m a first generationer, I’ve done pretty well NOT having the advantages, affirmative action benefits, and support that certain protected groups have. I’ve grown up in poverty, felt it, embraced it, and experienced it on a level you’re probably unable to fathom. What stopped me from attending Harvard and an American born with full support with AA actions are two different things.

When I say a “perpetual” student I mean that there are people who eventually learn practical skills of substance or they just continue to collect degree after degree because they have no skills that employers want. It means that they can’t hack it in the real world. If one has 4 or 5 degrees, all in degrees that are “soft” with no real world value, and nothing to show for it then that’s a case in point. In general, a plethora of degrees harms one more than it does good, unless if one wants to play the minority card I suppose.

You mentioned for instance, http://www.degreeforum.net/off-topic/21400-criminal-justice-unethical-cash-cow.html how practically useless a criminal justice degree much like a sociology degree is. So a PhD in something easy and not valued by employers will be easier to do in a shorter period of time. Try doing that in something difficult like biology, physics, or computer science. With 1 degree, from a foreign country, make north of $100K a year without having needed an American degree, and I arguably did it in a more efficient manner instead of being babysitted through in class and countless useless degrees and with no real valuable work experience.

Sanantone: You claim to be all-knowing about what and why people post, so you should know this.

KM: You know there’s a saying when you cause some controversy, it usually means you’re onto something. I don’t claim to be all knowing and I have, on multiple occasions, admitted where I am wrong. My humility and eagerness to learn from people who know more than myself is what has made me very successful in life.

Sanantone: You were factually wrong about what types of accreditation certain schools have. That is what I was talking about. You were also wrong about the FEMA IS courses being ACE-evaluated. It's no big deal. We're all wrong sometimes. I have never said I'm right 100% of the time. You assume you know my whole posting history, but you don't. There have been times where I admitted I was wrong

KM: I've never seen where you'll admit your wrong, though I can't say I care to read 6000 posts of noise either.

What happens though is that you and some of your religiously fervent apologists look to find any little statement that could be misinterpreted the wrong way or is not an egregious error (oh wow FEMAs on the ACE list are not ACE, big deal, they’re still accepted - and I KNEW you would bring this up, like I said petty).

It’s a common error about schools like Phoenix, it still doesn’t detract that they’re all garbage institutions which is what really matters, and actually I knew that but at the moment forgot, sue me if you wanted to launch into a tirade it over a little technical error as is often the case, and like others have mentioned, being pedantic as always.

Most of the time you don’t admit you’re wrong even when people point it out however from which I can tell from your general attitude, persistence and insistence with arguing incessantly with others over the silliest of issues is well known. I would suggest, perhaps, looking for a better outlet for any frustrations and insecurities maybe perhaps through vigorous exercise.

Sanantone: There is also a group here that strongly defends NA schools. Be my guest and start posting your opinions here to see what happens.

KM: That’s fine, I don’t pander to the crowd, or look for approval from anyone. I let people decide for themselves to make up their own minds from what I have to say. I don’t need to convince/take seriousy people that rely on classic logical fallacies i.e. ad hominems, straw mans, and argumentum ad populum because in the end truth usually prevails one way or another, and it's those rational people that are my intended audience.

Sanantone: At the end of the day, you are the person who mostly touts avoiding real work in college. I avoided completing statistics through ALEKS, DSST, or some other alternative source; but, I ended up taking an actual course in it at the masters-level. I also took a doctoral-level course in linear regression. I only tested out of about half of my BA in Social Science. I have taken two research methods courses at the graduate-level; I did not test out of them. At the same time, you're bragging about passing the easiest tests that require little knowledge and study.

KM: You haven’t attended any rigorous institutions, though back in my prime I did attend a difficult and reputable program in India. To test out of a degree from a poorly regarded institution that has no standards for the sake of getting an RA degree for career purposes? I and most people in these situations have no problem with that!

From institutions that are quality, I don’t advocate cutting corners i.e. top MOOC courses. Linear regression? That’s great. I’ve taken courses in linear regression, statistical modeling, R, python, MySQL, MongoDB, probabilistic modeling, data visualization, and so on all in my late 40s and 50s. Data analysis and modeling IS my career. You know that a lot of courses even if grad level are a joke particularly in non-quantitative no-name programs right?

I don’t advocate avoiding real work in college - I’m saying that your degree from TESC or my degree from COSC don't amount to much even though they're RA. We're not learning anything valuable, and you even said it. Yeah, I exclaim about passing the easiest tests, which is why resources like IC exist, and it’s why dozens of people have messaged me about the COSC program. So yeah, dozens and most people, unsurprisingly, want the road/path of least resistance, when most of higher ed is a money making scam and where most students are just looking to get a degree for career purposes. Nothing wrong with that either because education =/= knowledge.

Sanantone: As far as you telling me that I avoid standardized tests, that could not be more wrong. The tests I've passed are in my signature at Degreeforum.net. You'd have to be blind not to see them. Not only have I tested out of many courses, but I took the GRE in order to get into my PhD program; and, I took the SAT when I was in high school. Again, anyone who is familiar with my posting history knows that I much prefer tests over courses like Straighterline or Penn Foster.

KM: I do stand corrected on the GRE and SAT then, and it’s good to know that was a requirement of your graduate program, though I'm eager to know what the standards for the program were.

You know I meant SATs and GREs and not credit exams. Once again being pedantic. I saw somewhere where you posted that high school GPA matter more than test scores for collegiate success which is such a naive look on success especially if one hasn't made it. First make it before making such a call. Perhaps there is an agenda to either prove to yourself or others that standardized scores are meaningless when they matter a lot and dictate how rigorous a program someone can handle.

Sanantone: The way you regurgitate the same talking points dozens of times even when they aren't even relevant to the topic at hand shows that you have a very narrow-minded way of thinking. You are incapable of thinking outside of a small list of concepts. You also have a very low emotional IQ; that's why you constantly get into arguments. And, this is coming from someone who is very blunt and has been criticized for showing a lack of emotion. The only help for you is therapy and medication.

KM: Nice ad hominem attack, very mature. Narrow minded? I have raised two successful sons, happily married, and accomplished everyday I could ever possible want in this world. I have worked for Fortune 500 companies, start ups, and the government now that I am older. It's amusing coming from the person who does nothing but post all day for years in and out and seemingly nothing better to do in free time, who constantly gets into fights over pedantic issues, which to me & most people is the definition of "narrow minded." You've also shown examples of this such as when you’ve advocated TESC over the years (and you even state as such) and repeat the same old advice day in and day out which is often incorrect or misguided. While you possess a large amount of information which is commendable in some ways much like a savant of a certain type, your ability to parse and analyze that information in a useful manner has a lot to be desired.

As far as your comment about "therapy and medication" goes, you'll need to do pre-med courses, and knowing you, possibly a BA in Psychology, and go on to medical school before making any medical diagnoses. However, although I can't speak for my husband, who is a licensed doctor, I would have to ask him if he thinks you could have OCD, depression, and possibly autism/Asperger's  since you suggested your emotional IQ is low, though I'm obviously not a medical professional, so don't take my opinion as medical advice of course.

I'm a relatively happy, and successful person, and my attitude and personality in life is why I’ve gotten to the point where I am today in my career, family, and friends. The difference is that the people I surround myself and the type of people you surround yourself with are in leagues of their own in terms of intellectual, emotional, and social development, but whatever makes you feel good about yourself I suppose. More importantly, please don't confuse my presence on a forum or my tone with you on how I conduct myself in real life or in general. I’m very polite, emotionally sensitive and receptive to other people’s needs, put others before myself accordingly. I'm here to help others, not fuel your ego trips, so let's just agree to disagree then.

We can go on and on, but I’ll leave it at that, and end this discussion with you since I’ve said everything I wanted to say, and I won't speak any further on your feelings or frustrations against me. I am sure you will do fine on your goals in life whether you go into criminal justice and/or as a police officer. In any case, I don't harbor any ill will against you and wish you the best of luck on all your endeavors in school, law enforcement, and life.

Sanantone: My PhD program is new, so I can't compare it yet to others that have been around long enough to be ranked. The rank of the program is more important than the rank of the school. In the criminology field (and several others), some of the highest-ranking schools are ranked low overall. All I know is that my professors mostly have degrees in criminology/criminal justice and sociology from the top sociology and criminology/criminal justice programs in the nation. You can check out the faculty list yourself and compare the schools they graduated from with the rankings done by US News. And, what graduate school is going to list American schools that are acceptable for admittance? They typically just list the type of accreditation they accept. When it comes to foreign schools, they probably feel the need to list which ones will be acceptable.

I did not cast doubts on your English abilities because you're from India; I cast doubts on your English speaking abilities because of the lack of reading comprehension skills you demonstrated in the first thread you posted. Some people from India are native English speakers while others aren't. There is nothing racist about that. I speak a little bit of Spanish; it wouldn't be racist for someone to ask whether or not I'm a native Spanish speaker even though many Americans are native Spanish speakers.

You rarely admit you're wrong when you clearly are; you just stay quiet. No, you haven't read all 5,300 of my posts, so don't pretend like you have. The average number of posts I make per day is around 3.5. Before you were banned, the average number of posts you made per day was around 2.5. Whoop di doo. What a big difference. I actually spend very little time posting. It does not take much time to make 3 or 4 posts per day. How long does it take you to review people's posting history? That sounds obsessive to me. Didn't you say you went through hundreds of threads on the forum?

I never said I attended prestigious schools, so I don't get your point. You seem to only be mentioning this as a way to insult me, but it doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm fine with the colleges I've attended. When someone else is looking for a prestigious school, then I give them advice based on their preferences. I try not to project my preferences on others as you seem to do a lot. Almost everyone who has graduated from my PhD program so far has gotten a tenure-track position immediately or after a year of being a lecturer. They make almost as much money as the assistant professors at higher ranking schools, so their degree from TxState has worked fine for them.

I've already explained to you how affirmative action works, so I'm not going to do it again. I worked my way up to being a supervisor at one of the largest security companies in the U.S. without a degree. I also held a civilian position at a police department where they accepted my education in lieu of experience. My goal for earning a PhD in criminal justice is to become a researcher in criminology. In the social sciences, people actually do well after earning a graduate degree. Their unemployment rates are low, and the salaries for sociologists with graduate degrees is actually quite high. Speaking of biology, it is one of the most popular majors in the country (top 5). Biology majors score lower on the MCAT than humanities majors. Biology majors also make about the same amount of money, on average, as several different social science majors. There are a few social science majors that make more than biology majors. By the way, I've always found biology to be easy and fun. I took AP biology in high school.

I posted that high school GPA is a better predictor of college success because there have been many studies done showing that it is. I, personally, have never had a problem with standardized testing. It fluctuates as more people take the revised version, but my verbal score on the GRE is currently in the 87th percentile. I took it without studying. If anything, I'm saying that someone who scored lower than I did could possibly end up being a better student. Some people are just really good at taking tests while others can afford good coaching. I came from a poor family, so I wasn't the type of student that received coaching.

Again, I do not spend all day posting online. Usually, I spend less than a total of 30 minutes each day posting on forums. Most of my time is spent studying, preparing lectures for the class I teach (I'm on an assistantship), and grading papers. I type 64 wpm. It does not take me long to make a few posts. As far as your comments about how often I post at DegreeInfo. I've been a member for about 2.5 years and make about 1.5 posts per day there, on average. I tend to post in spurts as topics that interest me come up. I don't see how any person could logically say that I'm avoiding a forum where I've made 1,300 posts. Posting less on one forum than another is not indicative of avoidance. How come you've been a member there since January, but have only made 1 post? Haven't you made over 300 on the other forum?

I did not say I have a low emotional IQ. There goes the reading comprehension problems again. I said I show a lack of emotion. In the criminal justice field, people only make things worse by acting with emotion. They freak out instead of solving the problem. People in the criminal justice field who can't control their emotions are also more likely to get into arguments with and assault the public/inmates. I've taken multiple personality and aptitude tests that have listed psychologist as a good career for me. One even said I should become a nurse. A couple of others have said I should become a grade school teacher or social worker.Those aren't jobs for people with low emotional IQs. For your information, I passed the MMPI when I took it a couple of years ago for a license requirement, so I've been examined by a psychologist. Talking about getting into arguments online is the pot calling the kettle black (so is complaining about insults when you do it yourself). You have been in more arguments on Degreeforum.net in the past couple of months than I have in the past few years.

I used to work with children on the autism spectrum, so I was going to mention my impression that you seem to be autistic; but, I thought that would be inappropriate. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I've been studying substance abuse for years. I'm a licensed chemical dependency counselor intern and plan to take the licensing exam after I finish my PhD program. Part of studying substance abuse is studying co-occuring disorders.

What exactly is a non-quantitative program at the graduate-level? Those are mostly in the humanities. Many psychologists are also statisticians. Most of the research done in the social sciences is quantitative (that's excluding history which is more fitting as a humanity). You don't know who I surround myself with. Why do you keep pretending you know things about my personal life when you don't? Today, I'm going to a party with my professors and classmates. I mostly hang out with doctoral students. I haven't seen any signs that you are an intellectual. I'm even surprised that you're a data scientists considering that you seem to have little understanding of research methods and basic statistical concepts. Your parroting of 123degree, Bain4weeks, TECEPs are bad, and IC flashcards are the best over and over again even when they aren't relevant to the topic at hand is not a sign of intellectualism.

You don't seem to understand the definition of a perpetual student. Having multiple degrees doesn't automatically mean someone is a perpetual student. Most perpetual students never graduate or purposely take longer than usual to graduate. When they do graduate, they enter another program to avoid entering the workforce. I was in the workforce the whole time until I received my assistantship last year. The AAS I received was a freebie. I just happened to have all of the credits for it. My masters and PhD are a progression to becoming an academic.

Anyway, criminal justice PhD programs are shorter because almost all of them require a master's degree for admittance. Many other fields of the natural and social sciences will admit students straight from bachelor's programs. Criminal justice/criminology programs do this because they see themselves as more applied. Actually, I believe I read somewhere recently that PhD programs in the humanities take the longest, not STEM programs. I started working on other degrees while in my PhD program because I became restless. I know my job opportunities with a PhD in criminal justice will be great because there is a shortage of PhDs in this field already, and undergraduate and master's programs in CJ/criminology have been growing rapidly. It's now one of the top 10 most popular majors, and schools have to hire professors with PhDs in other social science fields because there aren't enough people with PhDs in criminology/CJ.

I was attempting to earn the ASNSM in Biology for personal fulfillment and also because I have been studying biology anyway. There is actually biological research in criminology. The BSBA in CIS will have little relevance to the CJ field, except that it would make me look a little better if I wanted to teach cybersecurity courses in CJ programs (yes, those do exist). And, the business part could have relevance to white collar crime. Again, it is mostly a personal fulfillment thing. I'm paying cash for these additional undergraduate degrees. Being a social scientist is my skill. Getting an advanced education is how one typically becomes a social scientist. I've already done consulting work for a law enforcement agency with a high turnover rate and another one expressed that they might be interested in having me consult them on their employee relationship issues.

One's value to society is not based on how much money one makes. Social workers have many job openings and help many people. They need a master's degree and a lot of training to become an LMSW or LCSW, but they don't get paid much. For me, that is what makes what they do more commendable. They help people because they want to, not because they will make six figures.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Sanantone: And, what graduate school is going to list American schools that are acceptable for admittance? They typically just list the type of accreditation they accept. When it comes to foreign schools, they probably feel the need to list which ones will be acceptable.

KM: The point I was getting at was that Berkeley won’t accept a degree from TESC with a lack of GPA combined and its lack of name, but that degrees from India have clout even in India. We have institutions like IIT, for example, that are considered even by Americans, better than MIT and most of the H1B visas are coming from India when it comes to the incredible shortage of high tech jobs in the tech valleys throughout the country.

Sanantone: I actually spend very little time posting. It does not take much time to make 3 or 4 posts per day. How long does it take you to review people's posting history? That sounds obsessive to me. Didn't you say you went through hundreds of threads on the forum?

KM: I was/am in the period of completing my degree and the information, discussions, etc. were relevant towards streamlining completion of my degree hence my “burst” of high posting over the last couple of months. I’m here to fulfill my goals, impart some word of wisdom for others, generate some discussion, and then I’ll be on my merry way in life. Life is short, and it’s better spent not all the time on the internet. I suppose it could be said I was obsessive in some context, but you’re on a whole other level of obsession when it comes to posting over a several year period in time.

Sanantone: I never said I attended prestigious schools, so I don't get your point. You seem to only be mentioning this as a way to insult me, but it doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm fine with the colleges I've attended....Almost everyone who has graduated from my PhD program so far has gotten a tenure-track position immediately or after a year of being a lecturer. They make almost as much money as the assistant professors at higher ranking schools, so their degree from TxState has worked fine for them.

KM: I find that hard to believe that your colleagues have gotten on tenure tracks so suddenly especially since your program is new. Well, it could be true assuming the pays are not that great.

Sanantone: When someone else is looking for a prestigious school, then I give them advice based on their preferences. I try not to project my preferences on others as you seem to do a lot.

KM: You do and have projected your preferences whether consciously or subconsciously particularly when it came to TESC and you even stated as such on several occasions. But that’s ok everyone does. Though I think it’s acceptable to project some preferences i.e. going to a better school and/or cheaper school is better in general compared to a lower one. I find it humorous that some people have objections with stating a program may be better to go to when it could be cheaper by several grand (usually for some fringe reason).

My preferences are not so much mine but rather what employers schools, and society in general prefer, so if that’s projection then I take solace that I'm in the majority on that (i.e. RA schools being favored/better in general). In the end, smart people know that they’re just opinions, and unless someone is unsure they can parse out what information is important for them.

Sanantone: I’ve already explained to you how affirmative action works, so I'm not going to do it again. I worked my way up to being a supervisor at one of the largest security companies in the U.S. without a degree. I also held a civilian position at a police department where they accepted my education in lieu of experience. My goal for earning a PhD in criminal justice is to become a researcher in criminology. In the social sciences, people actually do well after earning a graduate degree. Their unemployment rates are low, and the salaries for sociologists with graduate degrees is actually quite high. Speaking of biology, it is one of the most popular majors in the country (top 5). Biology majors score lower on the MCAT than humanities majors. Biology majors also make about the same amount of money, on average, as several different social science majors. There are a few social science majors that make more than biology majors. By the way, I've always found biology to be easy and fun. I took AP biology in high school.

KM: Affirmative Action gives blacks, hispanics, and native americans a greater advantage per individual than what being a woman does. Being URM plus being a woman is the ultimate coupe de grace from an admissions standpoint - if you have that card, the standards are much lower. It also seems to help, even if unofficially, in government work, but I can't really say/unsure of what the reasons are.

Biology, in it and of itself, has a glut of workers, hence the pay being low. It's kind of a useless degree unless if it's applied. It’s hard to say there are a few social science majors that make more than bio majors, maybe clinical psychology, but if you’re talking at undergraduate level, probably a biology person would make more. Certain fields in graduate level bio work like molecular biology can pay far more in industry. I doubt that the salaries of sociologists are really that high, probably no higher than mid 50s or 60s, and typically government/nonprofit work.

Sanantone: I posted that high school GPA is a better predictor of college success because there have been many studies done showing that it is. I, personally, have never had a problem with standardized testing. It fluctuates as more people take the revised version, but my verbal score on the GRE is currently in the 87th percentile. I took it without studying. If anything, I'm saying that someone who scored lower than I did could possibly end up being a better student. Some people are just really good at taking tests while others can afford good coaching. I came from a poor family, so I wasn't the type of student that received coaching.

KM: The problem with a lot of these studies is that it incorporate fluff liberal arts majors like Sociology, or Communications & undergraduate education in the US in general, at least from my experience, is watered down compared to the rest of the world. There is a certain level of "intelligence" needed for “hard” subjects like physics, engineering, computer science, etc and it’d be easy to predict how people who work harder but lack the “requisite” analytical ability would do. This is a classic study of nature versus nurture though, and the answer imo is really that it’s a combination of both. Koreans, for instance, are known for having some of the highest IQs, and I believe there is a component of IQ that is hard-wired. Ashkenazi Jews are another group as well with very high scholastic performing people. Men also tend to do better in more analytical fields due to higher levels of testosterone which drives visuospatial ability. That said, there is more to life than just IQ and grades, but it’s probably the case that people in general are predisposed for certain activities and occupations, and that IQ & scholastic success are intertwined. There comes a point, however, where more IQ comes with diminishing returns and it's better to have a 120 IQ and a strong work ethic rather than a 180 IQ but lazy.

Sanantone: Again, I do not spend all day posting online. Usually, I spend less than a total of 30 minutes each day posting on forums. Most of my time is spent studying, preparing lectures for the class I teach (I'm on an assistantship), and grading papers. I type 64 wpm. It does not take me long to make a few posts. As far as your comments about how often I post at DegreeInfo. I've been a member for about 2.5 years and make about 1.5 posts per day there, on average. I tend to post in spurts as topics that interest me come up. I don't see how any person could logically say that I'm avoiding a forum where I've made 1,300 posts. Posting less on one forum than another is not indicative of avoidance. How come you've been a member there since January, but have only made 1 post? Haven't you made over 300 on the other forum?

KM: Apples and oranges comparison. I use DegreeForum because I have an InstantCert membership there, the discussions are more geared towards tricks and hacks towards completing a Bachelor’s degree, and I receive a lot of private messages from members asking for advice for degree recommendations. The other forum is good too and has better discussions from what I can tell on master’s level work. When and if I decide to a Master’s in PA, I may post more there, but in general, I’m not a prolific forum user – I only became intrigued with all the controversy and vitriol directed against me by forum fascists, which to me only seemed to indicate how willing some users were able to get nasty, passive aggressive, and reveal their own cognitive dissonance and shortcomings in rational discourse. There was even one user who tried connecting to my router through my IP address which just demonstrates how petty some forum users are. The point that some of you proved though was that free speech and "accepting everyone" is only accepted when it goes along the party lines which is eeringly similar to the SJW movement on the Internet. You've  probably also experienced something like that at that NA institution when you tried to go against the status quo.

The interesting part is that dozens (yes dozens) of people, typically lurkers/newcomers, have PMed me thanking me for the COSC degree plan I created. You can ask, for instance, DIYMom, Setta,  Decius73, TinHead, blackmamba24 who all made their own minds after analyzing and considering all their options using their own minds. The one thing that was common with all of them was that they didn’t want to do TESC exams upon doing their own research, wanted preferred exam recommendations, and in general, were looking to complete a degree with minimal hassle and struggle. They all did their own HW and checked to see if the assertions/tips made agreed with their own beliefs. Also, there's nothing wrong with hacking a degree if the lack of degree is a hindrance - we live in a very pedigree-sensitive society and higher ed is a business, so a savvy consumer can figure out what’s best for their own needs especially when a bachelor's degree these days, at most institutions, is a waste of money, and time.

Btw, you mentioned, "Your parroting of 123degree, Bain4weeks, TECEPs are bad, and IC flashcards are the best over and over again even when they aren't relevant to the topic at hand is not a sign of intellectualism.," no idea what you're talking about, but when a poster who hasn't been to the forum before wants study tips, repeating it over again has nothing to do with intellectualism, so your commentary is irrelevant. More importantly, one of the claims I do make is that in general people prefer the road of least resistance. This is something that Steve Gloer believes, as does 123CollegeDegree, BAin4Weeks, free-clep-prep.com, who all arguably have a bigger stake and and vested interest in helping people test out quickly, so they are certainly very relevant.

There are actually a tremendous amount of posts and threads discussing how studying for TECEPs are laborious and a pain in the ass, particularly one from a few weeks ago where a poster wished they had known how arduous and tedious studying for TECEPs would be compared to CLEPs and DSSTS. I've openly conceded that when easy prep for these exams is made it will be the best option, so I fail to see how I'm not giving a fair shake to the TESC program, which I've said I preferred. I have no problem confidently stating that most TECEPs are not that great to prepare for compared to options that have review materials, assuming a student is coming with a blank state, a tabula rasa.

I also give a fair shake to TESC programs when cost is a primary concern, or they want to test out of a degree that isn't Business Admin (which happens to be the most popular major), and absolutely need to save a couple grand. The people who ended up doing the COSC business plan, overall, seemed to find spending an additional $2,000 or so was worth it thanks to the "coaching," and "guidance" they received knowing how everything would exactly transfer in as, and knowing how other students have done it.

And yes, IC flash cards are extremely effective from a price/utility standpoint. You said you never used them so you wouldn't know, but it's fair to say that people who do study with IC cards are doing far better than ones who aren't (yes, a gross exaggeration, but I'm not going to argue how we can't tell without controlled studies). Considering that the other main competitor, istudysmart, is expensive and lengthy, and that some prep is better than no prep, IC is extremely effective.

I also think it speaks volumes when someone is able to finish a BA in 4 months, 22 CLEP/DSST exams in 3 days, or 6 months, and so forth and each time they're all recommending IC. That's the one thing that we're all coming to a conclusion to. Now there's maybe a few people on this small forum who are saying that IC cards are not the end all/be all and imo, they have never used it like yourself, or have trouble/difficulties with testing in general. Now that said, it is an opinion (you see, I don't claim I'm right, I always state this or that is my opinion), but it's an opinion I adamantly make and for good reason, which is probably why so many people, typically with no preconceived bias, like what I have to say. It's no different than saying that fat people, for instance, are ugly, which is an opinion, but no different than an opinion that IC cards are better than reading textbooks which I'm sure most people would agree with me on. I am also sure that if a randomized study was done, that most people would find doing flash cards is superior than reading a 500+ page textbook, and I won't back down on that claim.

Sanantone: I did not say I have a low emotional IQ. There goes the reading comprehension problems again. I said I show a lack of emotion.

KM: I know what you wrote, but I also know what it could have implied as well. That’s not indicative of a problem with reading comprehension, that’s an indication of an ability to derive inferences from statements - which is funny you mention given that the SAT/GRE usually test these types of things. Specifically, you didn’t say you have a low emotional IQ, but you did say, “this is coming from someone who is very blunt and has been criticized for showing a lack of emotion. The only help for you is therapy and medication" so it could be inferred that someone who is very blunt, and criticized for showing/expressing a lack of emotion could be seen as autistic.

Usually it takes two people (at least) to get into an argument, and so far I’m not really impressed with the types of arguments that have been thrown my way from the types of people in question (mainly the 8 or so forum regulars who have difficulties engaging in intellectual debate and discussion, and resort to personal attacks). This is relevant especially considering what Steve Gloer who said to me, “I've received a lot of complaints about you over the last couple of weeks (from at least seven or eight different people). I've been replying that finding someone annoying is not grounds for banning them -- as adults, they should be able to ignore you or walk away if they don't like talking to you.” Usually the typical argument made is that such and such could be an exception but there’s also the saying that the exception proves the rule. More often than not, however, it’s usually due to someone nitpicking some minor argument, and saying how everyone’s situation is different. Too bad they’re unable to read what I’ve stated which is that these are my opinions on things, that everyone’s situations are of course different, and that what I suggest/opine on are just “ideals.”

Sanantone: In the criminal justice field, people only make things worse by acting with emotion. They freak out instead of solving the problem. People in the criminal justice field who can't control their emotions are also more likely to get into arguments with and assault the public/inmates. I've taken multiple personality and aptitude tests that have listed psychologist as a good career for me. One even said I should become a nurse. A couple of others have said I should become a grade school teacher or social worker.Those aren't jobs for people with low emotional IQs. For your information, I passed the MMPI when I took it a couple of years ago for a license requirement, so I've been examined by a psychologist. Talking about getting into arguments online is the pot calling the kettle black (so is complaining about insults when you do it yourself). You have been in more arguments on Degreeforum.net in the past couple of months than I have in the past few years.

KM: You’ve already shown how emotionally invested you are having already made several ad hominems, but let’s pretend otherwise. The number of arguments one gets into means nothing - Galileo got into many arguments with the Catholic church, and the status quo thoroughly rejected him. There's also a preponderance of religious folk and people, for one reason or another, who have not completed their degrees in a timely manner, and have gone back to school often struggling with concepts of intellectual discourse, and often have major academic deficiencies.

In any case, you try to remain objective, but often the vitriol and/or passive aggressiveness in your writings can be seen when someone brings up a valid counter-argument. It’s your style to, when someone discusses something generally, for you to break it down and nitpick little things rather than “get” what’s being said which could be an indication of difficulty getting the bigger picture, or it's possible you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, and I'd suspect it's a mixture of both.

Most of psychology tends to be quack pseudo-science that pretends to be science but really isn’t. That’s because psychology can never have clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experimental conditions, reproducibility and, finally, predictability and testability, so take solace that what a psychologist says doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Sanantone: I used to work with children on the autism spectrum, so I was going to mention my impression that you seem to be autistic; but, I thought that would be inappropriate. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I've been studying substance abuse for years. I'm a licensed chemical dependency counselor intern and plan to take the licensing exam after I finish my PhD program. Part of studying substance abuse is studying co-occuring disorders.

KM: There goes the ad hominem attack again, very objective of you. Don’t confuse my writings which are primarily objective in intent and tone with autism. If you want to be a responsible and professional social worker, you really shouldn’t or wouldn’t be making such base judgments.

There seems to be a misunderstanding in general that the more logical or rational a discussion is that the more autistic that person is at least in the context of internet discussions. There’s also a confusion that if a person is a woman that they should be deferential and polite in tone hence the vitriol directed against me as well.

The funny thing with Western-based modalities in Psychology/Psychiatry, is that most of the diagnoses cannot be accurately made and/or the disorders are man-made and largely bogus. There are some exceptions like Schizophrenia and Autism, but the neurological and/or neurobiological tests and/or assays that can say without a doubt that someone has a condition are primitive at best.

This is why there has been such a marked explosion of diagnoses in Asperger’s, ADHD/ADD, clinical depression, bipolar, etc. which also fits in with big pharm’s need to sell more drugs to children and adults.

Importantly, the DSM has gone through several revisions and is a subjective manual at best. Homosexuality was once a part of the DSM and was removed in the late 70s, and the DSM IV’s creator, Allen Frances, a Duke psychiatrist who has stated, “that the expanding boundary of psychiatry is causing a diagnostic inflation that is swallowing up normality and that the over-treatment of the "worried well" is distracting attention from the core mission of treating the more severely ill. In 2013, Frances said that "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests".

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dsm5-in-distress/201212/dsm-5-is-guide-not-bible-ignore-its-ten-worst-changes

So it’s not my job as an adult to hold hands of emotionally insecure individuals and make some forum members feel better about themselves like on Tumbler. My bedside manner and people skills are impeccable in real life, but I’m not going to stoop down to holding the hands of adults who can’t handle the rigors or what should be the rigors of higher education which entails or should entail critical thinking and intellectual discourse. Maybe that’s not what this forum is about as several have suggested (typically Bible thumpers and religious zealots at that), but that should be made clear on the forum that intellectual discourse is frowned upon. I don’t think, however, that that was ever the forum’s objective, and that anything is fair game to talk about. It’s just that a few bible thumpers have tried to usurp influence and control over how the discussions should be done, but hey, if that’s what being “open minded and supportive” is then it’s no different to fascism. No surprise there though given how sensitive and insecure folks are around here.

Sanantone: What exactly is a non-quantitative program at the graduate-level? Those are mostly in the humanities. Many psychologists are also statisticians. Most of the research done in the social sciences is quantitative (that's excluding history which is more fitting as a humanity)….I haven't seen any signs that you are an intellectual. I'm even surprised that you're a data scientists considering that you seem to have little understanding of research methods and basic statistical concepts. Your parroting of 123degree, Bain4weeks, TECEPs are bad, and IC flashcards are the best over and over again even when they aren't relevant to the topic at hand is not a sign of intellectualism.

KM: It can be quantitative but the research done is mostly pseudoscientific and largely junk. Furthermore, the programs aren’t known for being that mathematically rigorous. There’s a reason why engineers and mathematicians are often drawn in IB firms with no business background because of their analytical prowess. The main problems are that the claims are usually untestable, the inability to prove some assertion false (falsifiability), selection bias, etc.

I never said I was an intellectual, nor do I profess to be a scholar, but I also know that I’m not an idiot either and that I’m reasonably intelligent (maybe moreso by American standards which is, to say the least, setting the bar quite low by world standards). It’s very amusing that you mention I  don’t understand basic concepts in statistics when I’ve probably taken far more coursework, and have a deeper knowledge and awareness of statistics in general. You mentioned, one time, how IC pass rate data is invalid because it’s a self-selected group, but I never denied that it was. I simply stated that the data was still valuable for individuals who wanted to draw their own conclusions informally speaking and there’s nothing wrong with that unless you want to turn everything into a rigorously controlled experiment. We can’t know for sure without sampling an appropriate sample of the testing population.

Ironically, you’re the one who seems to have the poor grasp of statistics. Do you remember how you were claiming that Excelsior liberal arts graduates have higher salaries? I mentioned to you how their salaries were higher because they were, in general, older, and previously had a lot more work experience, and likely governmental workers with career tracks already established. It’s also why TESC, has the highest CPA rates, because the students are older. Statistics, in itself, is worthless without someone properly interpreting the results which is part of what my job entails. What you don’t understand about data science, however, or what data scientists do is that we often take data and try to make sense out of it. Statistics, and data science, believe it or not, is just as much of an art as it is a science (though it’s becoming less and less of an art with the tools that are being developed).

Sanantone: You don't seem to understand the definition of a perpetual student. Having multiple degrees doesn't automatically mean someone is a perpetual student. Most perpetual students never graduate or purposely take longer than usual to graduate. When they do graduate, they enter another program to avoid entering the workforce. I was in the workforce the whole time until I received my assistantship last year. The AAS I received was a freebie. I just happened to have all of the credits for it. My masters and PhD are a progression to becoming an academic.

KM: Perpetual student - A perpetual student, also known as a continual / continuous student (a sometimes used UK term) or professional student is a college or university attendee who re-enrolls for several years, typically more than what is necessary to obtain a given degree. Traits of or reasons for such behaviour include: Indecision (changing one's major one or more times), Inability to find a job, Pursuit of more than one degree or major, etc Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_student

So yeah, your ambitions are that of a perpetual student, not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with that, but for whatever reason(s), because you’ve been doing several bachelor’s degrees, master’s, PhD, etc. in random subjects. Quantity over quality. You could have taken all that mental energy and focused it on one subject that would have yielded you far more results in the end. Again, you didn’t need to be in the work force after high school - you would have received Pell grants, financial aid, need-based scholarships, and other forms of assistance to get you where you wanted or want to be.

Sanantone: One's value to society is not based on how much money one makes. Social workers have many job openings and help many people. They need a master's degree and a lot of training to become an LMSW or LCSW, but they don't get paid much. For me, that is what makes what they do more commendable. They help people because they want to, not because they will make six figures.

KM: Agree to disagree on the $$$ thing but I can understand that sentiment. One could make the argument that a janitor is just as valuable as the CEO of a company because “everyone is equal” since both contribute to society in different ways, but I would contend that because we live in a primarily capitalistic/for profit economy, money has the greatest influence in domestic and international policies, elections, and has the greatest bearing on how happy we are in life. Controversial statement in a politically correct environment, but I'll say that it’s one we all know deep down that is true, and if not, then well, move to Tibet and become a monk then. As they say money is the great equalizer in this world.

Society, as a whole, dictates how valuable you are based on how much money you make. Due to supply and demand, you’re more valued when there is more of a need for something, and less valued when there is less which is why they pay SWers less. Fields that pay more do so either because of government waste in the public sector (jobs for the sake of having jobs i.e. paper pushers), or more typically, because they have skills that are typically much harder to obtain.

I think it’s a naive sentiment and/or a cop-out that because a social worker makes less money and he/she still does it makes it any more commendable than another occupation that pays more. I don't think most SWers are intrinsically more altruistic than one who makes more money, and it's unfair to say that people who are driven by money are less altruistic. We all know that admissions to medicine, for instance, is so competitive because of the job security and high pay (no other field comes close), and you'd probably want to be in the hands of a surgeon who is driven by money, doesn't necessarily care for you, but gets the job done well versus one who "cares" and does a sloppy job (an exaggeration, but you get the idea of course).

Being paid less != greater virtue. It can be argued, however, that the people who are making more, say a brain surgeon, are helping society more based off of the tangible results/great utility they provide. But SWers, on the other hand, I’m not sure what tangible output they produce. The cynic in me would be inclined to believe that people are becoming SWers because there are not many other options available for them, that they probably do have an interest in the subject. That’s fine, however, because we all need to find work that we are interested in and that at least pays decently.

It seems that most of the jobs are in government work, which I would argue, as a libertarian in spirit, however, is a waste of taxpayer money. Of course, I’m being a hypocrite as a government worker, but I’m just an armchair philosopher, and not looking to prove myself to anyone.

Sanantone: Do you not see the hypocrisy in your posts? You criticize me for having arguments online, but make excuses for yourself when you do it more often. You criticize me for implying that you might be autistic when you did it to me first. Then, you make another excuse for yourself by telling me not to confuse your online personality with your real world personality. The same could be said for myself or anyone else. You also don't seem to understand how autism works. Showing a lack of emotion as a worker in an emergency situation is not indicative of autism. That's called using your training and also desensitization, which happens to everyone. Showing a lack of emotions is not the same as having a lack of emotions (sociopath and personality disorders) or not being able to interpret other people's emotions (common among those on the autism spectrum). I took an emotional IQ test designed by Berkeley as a required assignment for one of my PhD electives and scored well above average.

Other than starting and stopping my bachelor's degree off and on and changing my undergraduate major when I was young (which is very common in the U.S.), I do not meet Wikipedia's definition of a perpetual student. Pursuing more than one degree or major does not inherently make someone a perpetual student. It's important to understand what is being done within context. A double major is not a perpetual student just for pursuing a double major. This is a Wikipedia article that has no citation to an official or common definition. It should have been flagged by the community for not meeting standards. The person who made the entry simply just made up his or her own definition.

Because you know nothing about my personal life, you do not know whether or not I needed to get a job right out of high school. I had a sibling to provide for when my mother couldn't. I could not take care of the both of us with financial aid. The subjects that I've studied are not random. I have a BA in Social Science (my degree was a mixture of CJ, psychology, and sociology), a Master of Security Studies (this is a sub-field of international relations which is a social science), and I am working on a PhD in Criminal Justice (this is a field dominated by sociologists and often offers courses in terrorism just like my masters in security studies).

You're not even in school, and you're posting on education forums. I'm actually in school, so my pursuits are still relevant to DegreeInfo.com and Degreeforum.net.

Social workers are paid less because they don't produce much of a profit. That is their monetary value. There are many other values that have nothing to do with finances.

It's amazing that you still don't understand what was being said about Excelsior. Excelsior students were being compared to other students who were also mid-career. Why is that so hard to understand? Excelsior students were NOT being compared to recent college graduates from traditional colleges.

You compared IC statistics to the Gallup Poll. That shows your lack of understanding of research methods. The Gallup Poll posts its methodology online. They don't collect information the same way IC does.

Much of the research that is done in biology and the medical sciences is actually very similar to the type of research that is done in the social sciences. The answers aren't as clear as they are in chemistry and physics, but it does not mean their research lacks value.

I, too, have dozens of people PM-ing me on a regular basis on both forums. Because the other forum doesn't focus on testing, many times, people will come across my threads there that don't receive much discussion and send me PMs asking for advice. They aren't aware of the other forum, but I try to direct them there when I can.

Payscale collects information on salaries by major. http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/majors-that-pay-you-back

Most sociologists work for colleges and non-academic research firms, not the government (this is excluding public colleges which are being lumped in with other colleges). The median salary for a sociologist is around $74k. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/sociologists.htm#tab-5

Among the research-oriented fields that typically require a masters or higher, physicists/astronomers and political scientists have the standout salaries on the high end. Epidemiologists and historians are on the low end. The other fields tend to pay $70k-90k.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/economists.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/medical-scientists.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/political-scientists.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/biochemists-and-biophysicists.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/epidemiologists.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/hydrologists.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/physicists-and-astronomers.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/historians.htm

What many don't seem to know is that people with sociology and psychology degrees and strong training in statistics are in demand for marketing research. Also, those with undergraduate degrees in cognitive psychology or a closely-related field who have HTML/CSS/Javascript skills are in demand for UX/UI jobs at tech companies.

You implied that Berkeley would not accept a TESC degree. Not accepting a degree because of a lack of graded credits is something entirely different. As far as clout goes, American universities, as a whole, do the best on the most popular global rankings. A school that ranks between 100-150 in the U.S. is often ranked higher than top 10 schools in most other countries. There is evidence that, in general, American college graduates come out with less skills; but, our top 150 colleges still carry more weight worldwide whether warranted or not.

You find it hard to believe my colleagues have gotten tenure-track positions so soon because you are not familiar with the job market for CJ/criminology professors. One of our graduates did a post-doc at UCLA and received a tenure-track position afterward. Another student received a tenure-track position rather quickly at UHV. She didn't like the area, so she quickly found another tenure-track position at another school.

https://four.uhv.edu/asa/faculty/profile.aspx?faculty=QuinonesM1

https://www.tamuct.edu/departments/instructors/quinonesmichele.php

Here is another one.

http://www.armstrong.edu/Liberal_Arts/criminal_justice_soc_and_pol_science/cjsocpols_dr._kevin_jennings

The two people who successfully defended their dissertations last month already have assistant professor positions lined up. They are getting tenure-track positions quickly because, as I said earlier, there is a shortage of people with PhDs in criminology/criminal justice. It doesn't have much to do with salaries. There are other social science and humanities fields where the salaries are around the same or slightly higher, but there is an overabundance of people with PhDs in those fields. They have a more difficult time finding tenure-track positions. However, this is not just limited to the humanities and social sciences. Natural science PhDs are also having a hard time finding tenure-track positions quickly and are getting stuck in post-docs for years. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/the-phd-bust-americas-awful-market-for-young-scientists-in-7-charts/273339/

http://hechingerreport.org/oversupply-phds-threaten-american-science/

Engineering, law, business, and computer science professors have standout salaries. When you compare across the same categories (full professor, assistant, associate, etc. and type of institution), physical science, life science, and mathematics professors make similar salaries to a few non-STEM fields.

https://www.higheredjobs.com/salary/salaryDisplay.cfm?SurveyID=24